Are you being gaslighted and manipulated in a relationship with a significant other or parent? Maybe you are and you don't even realize it. This week we're talking about narcissists and how dangerous they are. A parent, a spouse, a boss, you'll be surprised just how many there are out there and even more surprised at how social media is grooming more and more of them every day. Check out Angela's site and get her book at www.undetectednarcissist.com
Are you being gaslighted and manipulated in a relationship with a significant other or parent? Maybe you are and you don't even realize it. This week we're talking about narcissists and how dangerous they are. A parent, a spouse, a boss, you'll be surprised just how many there are out there and even more surprised at how social media is grooming more and more of them every day. Check out Angela's site and get her book at www.undetectednarcissist.com
how to raise the self-awareness is let's say if someone you always interact with triggers, you will then look inside yourself and like, okay, what is it about that person that always pisses me off
Bobby:Bobby's face? Yeah, fuck. Yeah. What's up everybody. Welcome back to another. Teach two dumb dudes. Bobby, as always with my boy bento this week, we talked to Angela Meyer. She's the author of the undetected. Narcissist. She's worked with all kinds of different people and all different age groups, backgrounds, professionals, about her experiences with narcissistic abuse, we get into all kinds of discussions about narcissism and what it is. We talk a little science, we talk a little psychology. Uh, and we talk a little bit about her experience, uh, living with a narcissist. Angela was super, awesome. And informative. Hope you enjoy it. Everybody
Bento:need to take your time out quick. We need you on Facebook, teach the number two dumb dudes, teach two dumb dudes. The number two, give us some like guys. You know, you'll never miss a post. Every Monday. We post the episode out there. You listen to it, but we need some likes on there. So head on over to Facebook, give us a, like, we know you're scrolling through dumb shit anyway, so you might as well just take two seconds
Bobby:and like our page.
Bento:Hey, you guys. Hey, Angela. How you doing? Hey, I'm doing good.
Angela:I gotta say you guys. Aren't dumb. You're super smart. Mm-hmm
Bento:oh, I appreciate that.
Bobby:Thank you.
Angela:Yeah, I've listened to, I'm like two of your podcast and I'm like these dudes aren't dumb.
Bento:so on it. It's funny you say
Bobby:we were, we were literally just talking about it. We were just talking about it, like, you know, and bentos like, Hey, well, you know, we are the dumb dudes. And I said, ah,
Bento:Bobby did, Bobby did a bunch of research on nurses. I said, member said, we're the dumb dudes here. So, yeah. Thanks a lot for coming on. Uh, we really appreciate your time. Talk about narcissism. So you. Just kind of like a background for me too. I was particularly interested in this because my wife has, uh, a very narcissistic mother and it really messed up her upbringing. you know, she does a lot of therapy now because of it. You know, they're not on speaking terms anymore. it was, it's really brutal to kind of see what she's going through now because of, you know, her upbringing. So, that, you know, kind of caught my eye at narcissism. Like, you know, Bobby and I had said before, it seems like a term that gets thrown around a lot and very loosely, as, you know, people don't really know the true nature of narcissism and, and what it can do and those kind of traits. So you know, it's really interesting to learn about, about that with you.
Angela:Yeah. Well, the other factor that a lot of people don't talk about or realize is trauma bonding. So the thing is, is like with your wife, if she continued to have a relationship with the mom, she would be in a trauma bonded relationship because the biggest thing about trauma bonding, how, you know, you're in a trauma bond relationship is you make excuses for your abuser's behaviors. Mm. Right. Yeah. So for example, would be the dad would say, well, that's just how your mom is. She's always, she's Al you're. Yeah. She's always, you know, just abrupt and negative and bitter. So you make excuses for their behaviors, but then you're letting your, what you're teaching your kids is that's acceptable. Right? That's how grandma is allowed to treat you and talk to you when it is abuse. Mm. And who's gonna break the cycle of that abuse. And we have to realize that a lot of that excuse making was passed on from generation to generation to generation, right? Oh, well your dad just drinks too much, right? Yeah. We make these excuses, but if dad is a violent, drunk or abusive drunk, then you're letting that behavior be acceptable. And then what happens is because you grew up with that and that's acceptable when you attract someone or meet someone that has those same behaviors, it's just recycle and repeat, you'll make excuses for them.
Bobby:Do you think that that's based off of genetics or like, you know, I'm kind of asking like the nature versus nurture kind of question. Like, do you think that that's a taught thing or do you think it's inherited? No,
Angela:it's it's I it's taught because a narcissist isn't born, they're actually created and they're created at a six different ways. And so one, the different three different parenting styles is neglectful parent and a neglectful parent is someone that's just, I don't have time for. they're so self-absorbed, I don't have time for you, you know, just you're bothering me, go play with your dad or go play with your sister. You know, that's a neglectful, an absent parent is like a CEO or a president of the company. They're throwing all this money at you, but that's not what the child wants. The child really wants you.
Bobby:Yeah. You're with the nanny all the time. yeah. And,
Angela:and then the third one is a really strict authoritarian parent. And that parent is just really, really harsh has high expectations for you. But here's the problem is let's say you have an authoritarian parent and like every child they wanna be in loved and adored by that parent. So what happens is that child's gonna learn to be codependent, that child's going to want to win the parent's affection and mm-hmm and will sacrifice their happiness and joy just for the sake of that attention. Okay. Interesting. And the problem, what happens there is when that person becomes an adult, they're gonna find someone that's, let's say like their mom. So let's say they're gonna be attracted to a woman that could be really, really beautiful, but she's a complete, I'm just gonna say it here, a complete bitch. Mm-hmm and they think that, well, if I impress her enough, or if I do this enough for her, she'll accept me. She'll approve me. And, and, and in reality, you're, you're trying to have her fix you, but really you should be fixing yourself and you should be realizing that you didn't get the nurturing and the love or the, you know, you didn't get what you needed from your parents.
Bento:And that's really tough to realize, right? I mean, how, yes. How does one go about doing that? I, I feel like people go their whole lives without ever realizing it and just think that how I was brought up that was, I was just a pro of my environment. Right,
Angela:right. But the thing is, is once you're an adult, you really have a Cho you have a choice of how do you wanna live your life? How do you wanna think, how do you, how do you wanna create you and what, you know, what, what is what's healthy for you? And what's not healthy for you. So for some people Screaming and yelling is normal. Mm-hmm, that's, that's healthy to them, but to, I love it. okay then, you know, and then, then, but then, then here's the other thing, if you love that whole let's get in a fight and I'm just gonna be transparent with you guys. Let's fight and you just wanna get in a fight, so you'll fuck and have really good sex. Yeah, sure. You're more addicted to that than the healthy relationship. Oh,
Bobby:funny. See,
Bento:what's interesting too is like Bobby, right? Like he didn't grow up in a screaming, yelling household. Nope. Whereas myself, I grew up, you know, I, you know, Grew in, in an abusive household, I won't really get into too much details, but you know, like my parents were just yelling and screaming constantly. Mm-hmm and me, I hate yelling and screaming. like my wife and I, we've been married for 19 years now. I, I can kind of one hand the amount of like fights we've had, like, that's how well we get along and I've right. I went my entire life saying like I never, ever, ever wanna live in a house. Like I grew up in.
Bobby:Yeah. So it's, it's it's and I'm married and I'm married, married to a hothead and we're, but heads all the time. It's great.
Bento:So it's interesting to see how we both had very opposite upbringings, but also have opposite opposite you know, ways we wanna live.
Angela:Right. And, but the thing is, is that that's passion to you. Is that hot headedness, then that works for you. But for some other people, it doesn't because if you were broke, if you were raised in a family now. Okay. So here's a, have you seen that show on Netflix called how to build a sex room?
Bento:Nope. I started it my confession. Oh my God. so
Angela:when I watched that and I watched it with my partner, he was. Are you into spanking? Cause they say that a lot and I'm like, dude, no way you spanking, I'll spank you
Bento:back. oh, maybe he likes it.
Angela:No. And I told him I'm like, but it's because I was spanked a lot growing up. So I just like, with the yelling I associate as a negative, it does not interesting for me, but for people that weren't spanked and don't have a negative association to it, they can find pleasure and spanked. Right. I don't, you know, good for
Bobby:them. I don't have a negative association with people yelling. My whole family just happens to be very loud. And so naturally my partner and I yeah. Are the loudest people in the room everywhere we go.
Bento:And Bobby does love a good spank too. So
Bobby:it's true. Yeah, we does. That's true. It's true. Both ways. I just wanna go back real. So take it on back in the beginning, you said, uh, cause I mean, it's funny too, because I, I really, you know, I'm hearing you and, and I'm sitting here nodding along like this all sounds super, super spot on. And, and so processing. Yeah. And to me I'm like, yeah, like all this makes sense, but where you got me was that a narcissist is not born. Yep. So explain that to me a little bit in terms of like narcissistic personality disorder.
Angela:So how they're not born is so it's the three different types of parents because a neglectful parent isn't gonna teach you empathy. So a good example of I'll just give you my own personal take is supposedly my great-grandmother was extremely beautiful and she didn't want anyone to know that my, that she had a child. So she had, my grandfather literally walked so many feet behind her. And she ignored him all the time and because she ignored him and wasn't loving or empathetic or, or kind to him, he grew up being narcissistic
Bobby:mm-hmm right. But, but so in that case, your, your grandmother or great grandmother, excuse me. In terms of how people view narcissism today in the science community, it seems that more people are leaning towards the fact that your grandmother was not doing these things because of a specific characteristic, but yet it was a personality disorder that she
Angela:had. Well, no, it's actually passed down generation a generation. So when I did the research about my family history, my great, the farthest I could go back to was my great grandmother. So my great grandmother was narcissistic mm-hmm and a lot of times a narcissistic parent can create another narcissist. So my grandfather. Became on my mom's side, became a narcissist. All right. And then my mother married a narcissistic man. Mm-hmm And then I got pregnant by a covert narcissist, which is one of the most dangerous ones of all. And there are different types of narcissists mm-hmm And so, and I know how my dad was created because my, my grandmother or his mother in her, the way she was raised, you only have sex to procreate. And they already had two boys and she really wanted a girl. Both of them wanted a girl. And when my dad was born, they were really disappointed. And so they told him all the time, we wished you were a girl, we wished you were a girl. Yeah. What does that do to a man's head? It made him a misogynist and it made him actually hate women. And no woman could do better than me. And so when he grew up, he was gonna find a woman that he can control and he can manipulate because of all the, the crap that was fed in his head. And when, even when I was born, I was their first granddaughter. They even told me all the time, oh my God, we wished your dad was a girl were so happy you're here. And that made me mad and bitter. I mean, I know like, but that was unintentional. I don't think they realized what damage they were
Bento:doing. And that's what it seems like. Right. It seems like a lot of Narcis out there. Don't don't associate what they do with a personality disorder. They just think this is the way it is. This is how I am
Angela:well, and it's not because they literally can change because when I've gone out and I've talked about trauma and mental health and how they're stuck in their survival brain, they can't reach up to the cortex brain. Mm-hmm like they're angry and hotheaded. They're stuck in the limbic brain. Right. I had that first time I spoke, I had three narcissists come up to me and actually thank me. For talking, thanked me for helping them understand their brain. And each one of them said the same thing. And what they said is they could literally feel when they were slipping from the cortex, the rational brain down into the survival brain. And so what I told them to do, I'm like, okay, that's beautiful. If you wanna change, you look at it. As that's a crossroad, you can either do two things. You can take the low road and cut into them and ruin that relationship, that friendship mm-hmm or you can take the high road and you can say, look, I'm getting really angry right now. And I care about you. I don't wanna hurt your feelings. And so what I need to do is I need to walk away. I need to calm down because I don't wanna hurt you. And you are important to me. And I said, each time you do that, you're rewiring your brain. You're creating new, healthy neuro pathways. Yeah. And new habits and behaviors. So the more you do it, the more that becomes a part of you, because you've learned to the
Bobby:opposite, but so let me stop you there, right? Because if you take depression, for instance, depression is a mental disorder. Or if you're looking at bipolar disorder, it's. Personality disorder, right? Yeah. And so like you're saying it can be changed. You can be cured. Yeah. I agree for narcissism. There's no medication, you can take the prescribed treatment is talk therapy. So it would make sense that those individuals in your sessions would feel some sort of change. Right. Because what do narcissists lack most is self-awareness the ability to look inwards, honestly, because they have, they have no self-esteem they have no Empathy, actually,
Angela:they have really low self-esteem because that's
Bobby:why yeah. They have no self-esteem right. Yeah.
Angela:They've been neglected and abused and ignored or
Bobby:manipulated and controlled. But so with, like you said, with neuropathy, you can correct some of that, but you can as well with depression and things like that have, you know, anxiety, there has been shown research that says, uh, neuropathy and treating that realigning, your neuro pathways can treat those types of disorders. And so that's where, again, I'm drawn back to narcissism is a physical mental disorder.
Angela:Yes and no, but I gotta tell you that even if you're a survivor of psychological abuse, like narcissistic psychological abuse, you can become temporarily. Narcissistic because you're stuck in your survivor brain. Of
Bobby:course, of course. And that's why I think it, it really is more of a, it's a characteristic. Somebody is not narcissistic. They are narcissistic in the
Angela:moment. Yes. And that's why I tell a lot of people, depending how long you've been stuck in that survival brain really depends on how much you can change, because I have helped a narc, uh, you know, at least a few narcissistic people change. And I even have friends that are narcissistic. Sure. And I know how to talk to them. I know their behaviors and, and I know how to do it coming from a place of love instead of shame or blame or guilt. And because that's what triggers them is they already feel crappy about themselves. They don't need you to rub it in. Exactly.
Bento:So our, I mean, In general, are there lots of narcissistic people, like, kinda, like we said, you know, that that work is thrown around a lot, you know, you're narciss I hear it all the time. Do we really have that many people out there that are
Bobby:narcissistic
Angela:the population of cluster B is around, I think between 15 to 17%, but the, and that's, you know, that's like what 85% of the population is. Okay. Yeah. But my main concern is social media because we're grooming a lot of kids sure. To become narcissistic, you know, like
Bento:Instagram is the most yeah, exactly. Something I've ever seen. Yeah. It's created all look at my food,
Bobby:look at my books.
Angela:yeah. Yeah. Seriously, like, look at my body and look at this, but you know what? You can be so beautiful on the outside and so ugly on the inside. Right?
Bento:Well, it's one of the things we say too, like, cuz we, you know, Bobby and I talk about social media and how, how dangerous it is and you know, I don't do it when. When people scroll through social media and they see all their friends on vacation and having fun and like, it makes you feel jealous cuz you're not doing that stuff, but it's like, Hey, like they're only ever gonna post the best times. You know? Like you don't see the rest of their lives where it's they have fights and they have trouble. And you know, they, they, their bank accounts low, like none of everything is just a facade online.
Angela:Well, actually speaking of that my, my son. He's he has cerebral palsy, spastic leg disease. So he has a personal support worker and his personal support worker went to Cancun and took all these wonderful pictures. And when he came back, it was like, oh my God, it looked like you had so much fun. And he is like, it was fucking hell. I hated it. He's like my mom flipped in the bathroom and broke her hip. Oh God. And I had to wheel her around and, and I'm like,
Bobby:oh my God.
Bento:But everything looked amazing
Bobby:online.
Angela:Yeah. Yeah. All your pictures, you know, you're smiling at the dinner and look at this and stuff. He's like, oh no, it was a nightmare. Wow. That's a,
Bobby:yeah. Oh, so let ask you about so the idea of. Right. So while I was doing some research, I came across a study, uh, from Belfast university. It's a doctor Costus, Papa, Greg, I don't know how to say this. I'm really sorry. I'm sure. I'm not saying that correctly. So I'm not gonna try. I'm pretty sure you're not either. So he was saying that people with narcissism, that those types of personality traits, right. So that he defines narcissism as two different types, grandiose and, uh, vulnerable. Right. And that, that those are the two main types. Not that there aren't others. Cause I know, like you said earlier, there are four. But with that, he said specifically that grandiose narcissists, that we've seen a big rise in that because of social media. Oh yeah. And you know, the fact that, you know, we're all taught, like you're special, you're an individual be proud of who you are and be yourself and always, you know, who raw stuff. But that also. If you have a high level of that narcissist characteristic, it can propel you to become high profile leaders, CEOs, yeah. People who are willing to make sacrifices to achieve those, those things. Yeah. You think that's correct? Is that correct? You know?
Angela:No, I think that, I think that is correct. The ones that he's talking about are the vulnerable ones are the covert ones. Okay. So the best way to describe it is, and then I, I did a podcast and a blog post about it, of hot rage versus cold rage versus cold anger. So. The hothead one. So when you have hotheaded anger, it can actually motivate you and propel you to do things, to actually accomplish things, to, to, to make, do a task that, you know, you need to do. But the difference is, and they're boisterous or passionate all of that, but the cold ones are the scary ones, cuz those are the suckers that sit in the sit in the corner and they plot how they're gonna hurt you. Mm. And they're the quiet ones. Those are the vulnerable ones. Those are the passive aggressive ones. Those are the ones that are really, really dangerous. Cuz you don't know when,
Bobby:but again, that, that's where I would say that those people are the ones who most seem like they have a mental disorder.
Angela:Yes. Those ones do because those ones are the wounded the most. And they, those are the ones that you were hurt. People like to hurt people. They get satisfaction out of hurting you,
Bobby:which is certainly not an inherent human trait. It is a disorder. It is certainly
Angela:not an inherent human trait.
Bobby:Well, this is where again, like it's a chemical imbalance that creates this characteristic.
Angela:Yes. And it's someone that has a lot of repressed, anger and
Bobby:unresolved. Yeah. I bet. I
Angela:bet. Yeah. And so they, instead of like the hotheaded one, just lets it out. Think of like a, a can of soda. They just let it, they see it all over, but the cold one stuffs it down and they stuff it down. But you know what, when you shake a bottle so much, it's eventually eventually heat up and get pressure and it's gonna explode. And when the cold one explodes it's they literally plan it when they're gonna explode because they want to. Instill you with fear. And I mean, it's really messed up the way that they, they think and, and, and stuff. I mean, it they're, they're scary. So if you ever go out to a party and you see a quiet person sitting in the corner, you know, just kind of like that's me,
Bento:but that's just, cuz I'm antisocial. It's not, cause I'm not, I'm not
Bobby:plotting the rooms to mind. That's a different mental disorder
Angela:let's say, but that person, someone totally insulted them or offended them or really pissed them off. If they're not like getting mad, voicing their opinion or setting those boundaries, they're just sitting there quiet. Yeah, that would you wanna look out for, cuz you'll be like, watch your back buddy. Cuz that, that one, you know, but yeah, I'm the same way I, I go to a party and it's like, I don't wanna go. I'll just sit and I'll watch people and observe their
Bobby:behaviors. I mean, people watching is easily. One of the greatest PA times ever invented, so. Oh yes it's. Do you think that, you know, like you were saying, like I'm sitting in the corner at a party, do you think that part of that behavior is like self-protection oh
Angela:yeah. Some, sometimes it is because you, you don't know how you're gonna be perceived. You don't know how the other people are and, and sometimes. That you are, you're getting a feel for the room. Mm-hmm, you're getting a feel for the people that are there and like, well, am I comfortable talking to this person? Or am I not comfortable talking to this person? Does this person seem like a nice, decent human being? Or is this person a jackass? You know, you, you get to the side. And that's why I really tell people you wanna be self-aware you wanna. Really listen. And you want to read body language, cuz you can get so much off of body language. Sure. The role your eyes, you know, just like do, do they keep looking at their watch when you're talking? Cuz if they are, that means they don't care. What the hell you're talking about? They're you know, that's,
Bobby:it's so funny. It's so funny you say that. I, I feel like like reading body language is like a lost art in today's society. Oh yeah. Like I, I was reading a novel the other day and, and you know, this superhuman, whatever could look at someone and interpret every little micro, micro expression on their face and know exactly what they were thinking. And I mean, obviously we don't have the ability to do that, but think like, even like Sherlock Holmes, like the ability to read somebody's body language is so useful. And I feel like, yes, even I don't do it. Well,
Bento:I mean, you are in the military. I think about interrogators. Like, you know, they're trained to read body language and ticks and to know when someone's lying. It's right. It's like very
Bobby:deep. Yeah. Yeah, I think it goes under underused there's
Angela:there is, there was a great show on for a while called lie to me and they literally show you how these people can tell if they're lying. And they, what was scary is they actually showed certain people that we know out in the public eye. This is the look they make when they're lying or when they're angry. Wow. Or when you pissed them off. So even if you just watch a few of the few episodes it's called lie to me, you'll learn so much.
Bento:That's all. So in a world filled with narcissist, how does someone, who's not a narcissist deal with these kind of people? You know, especially on a day to day basis, if you know, if your boss is a narciss, if your parent a narcissist, like how do you, how do you go about dealing with them?
Angela:Well, let's say if it's a, a, a parent it's really. I mean, that's the hardest one. I think when it, when it is a parent, because right.
Bobby:Blinders on, right. You,
Angela:you love them. I mean, of course everyone wants to love their parent. Okay. Mm-hmm and you can love them, but not like them. And you can realize that there's parts of the relationship that just aren't healthy. And, and, and what I, what I learned was, and this is really, really true. And I learned this from a social worker where she said, there's two things that happen with kids. If the kid recognizes and realizes, okay, my dad is narcissistic, or my mom is narcissistic. They can make peace with that. And, and, and accept that this has their behavior has nothing to do with me. It's all them, it's them just project. Their issues, their insecurities, all their stuff on me. And they have a choice of, do I wanna be in that relationship or do I wanna partway be in it? You know, like maybe just holidays or birthdays or do I need to go complete no contact? And the ones that actually accept that about their parent do so much better in life. They actually move on and thrive in life. But the other one, if they are clinging to hope that the parent will change or clinging to oh no, they're gonna do this. You know, they believe they're blind faith, right? Yeah. You, you know, it's like, you wanna believe that they will do this for the sake of their child and they can't. And those are the ones that stay wounded. The longest. Those are the ones that actually get into drugs and alcohol and all these addictive behaviors, because they feel like they, they think they take it personal. Something's wrong with me? What am I doing that I'm not good enough to dad or mom? What, what can I do to please them to win their affection, their approval, their attention. And it doesn't matter what you do. You're not gonna do it. You're not gonna achieve it. And so that's where I tell a lot of people you wanna try to go to family therapy, if you can, right. With your family member, if your family member flat out, refuses to do it, then then take the advice of your therapist. And I guarantee you, your therapist is gonna tell you to go no contact. Yeah. Because they're so talk toxic and they're so. They can be really damaging, but I wanna prepare you for this. Okay. Because I had to do no contact with my father and he created a huge smear campaign cuz that's what they do when they're mad. When you do no contact, they're gonna be mad at you and they're gonna wanna retaliate.
Bobby:Of course. Yeah. That's exactly my mother-in-law did. Yes. Yeah. He was telling all
Angela:my family members, you know, like she's, you know, Blah, blah, blah. You know, all these nasty words. Yeah. His talking crap. And so, yeah. And so then my brother came back to me and he is like, why are you doing this? You know, you're really pissing him off. You're making him mad. Right? He's like, look, I tried to get him to go to therapy. He wouldn't go. He said, I'm the one with the problem. Not you, you know, not him. Right. And, and he's not taking responsibility for any of his actions or behaviors and it's hurting me and I cannot have a healthy relationship with him. Right.
Bobby:And I think that's so, that's so hard for people to, to take that, that cut, especially with a parent, but you're right. It is so necessary in some circumstances. I mean, even in my own life, I've known people whose therapists have told them like, yep. You need to just walk away. Yep. Because they're creating a toxic relationship for
Bento:you right. Only so many times you can try to work something out. The other part doesn't wanna do it, then it's nothing can be done.
Angela:And so, and if you stay in it, you're staying in a trauma bonded relationship. Mm-hmm cause you are allowing the abuser to keep traumatizing you and to keep abusing you. And I mean, I, he even went to the threat of, well, I'm gonna disinherit you. And I said, good, go ahead and do it. Yeah. Right. Go ahead. And you know, you can make all the threats you want, go ahead and do it. You know? It's like, my peace of mind is more valuable to me than your money.
Bobby:Right, right, right. Because otherwise you said you're gonna end up dramatically bonded to him the whole time. Anyway. So, and it's just another
Bento:thing to hold over your head, you know? Right. Yeah. You need to love me cuz I have this, you know, it's just right. Sounds like good old Italian guilt, Catholic guilt. They
Bobby:call it Catholic guilt. That's right. Catholic guilt. yeah. All the Italian. My grandmother loves that Italian guilt.
Angela:Yeah, loves it. And, and you see, and that's the whole thing is when you realize what the game is, then you have a choice. You have a choice of how you wanna react, how you were on and respond, and you can just look at it as, Hey, that's her Italian guilt. I'm just sure
Bobby:is I'm gonna love her and let it be and just let it
Angela:be. Cause it's not worth getting in a fight or arguing her. No, she's awesome. Okay. You're right, grandma. You're right,
Bobby:exactly. Yep. No, Anna, you totally right.
Angela:yeah. And there's nothing wrong and that's why I say you can still love'em you just don't like the way that they behave. Oh
Bobby:yeah. That's that's and you know, thankfully I, I, I have the ability to look at it with humor and, and say like, you know, ah, no big deal. Like, you know what I mean? That's just Nana being Nana, but like my wife, she takes it to heart and you, you know, It affects her on a different level, you know? And, and it is funny just to see the, the difference. And again, I, I don't think she's a narcissist by any type of, you know, means, but she certainly, you know, is a, a tough old Italian lady
Angela:yeah. And, and see, and that's, you know, way, some people can be, because in order to be by the, what is it, the DSM vibe or whatever, you have to have so many, like five or six in the category. Mm-hmm you have to have all those definitions. Right. And let's, let's be transparent here. All of us when we were growing up in kids learn how to lie. Oh yeah. We learn. And we, all of us learned how to blame shift. Mm-hmm we all learned how to manipulate our parents to have them bias something. oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. There's all these little traits and behaviors that we did learn. And some of those. Narcissistic traits and behaviors can get you out of trouble. But here's the thing is when you grow up and you become an adult, that's when you really gotta learn of, I know I can do this, but is it really right to do that? Yeah,
Bobby:yeah. Right. That, that manipulation and that characteristic is not, it's not mutually beneficial. Right. Normally, right. Normally when you take an action like that, there's a positive for you to be gained and a negative instilled on somebody else. And I think that that's probably the biggest problem with that characteristic type and the difference between the grandiose folks versus the other ones. Whereas the grandiose folks are just loud and, and boisterous and, and going for things. And I feel like that's a little less, you know, damaging to others.
Angela:Well, they wanna win. And that's the really big thing is they wanna seem superior and they wanna win and they wanna be a, a step. Above you. And that's the thing is they have this view of you are below them. You're not as intelligent. So I'm just gonna throw Trump out there. We've heard things that he have said where it's like, dude, put a sock in your mouth, you know, do you hear what you're literally saying,
Bento:God, he's a post a child for narcissism. he dare among other things. But yeah,
Bobby:it's so interesting though, because, because like, you gotta think about him in general though. And, and I, I wonder like, you know, I mean, I'm sure he really is like that, but to what degree, I wonder like how much of it is marketing and, and people like Roger Stone telling him, you gotta be like this and you gotta be like that versus himself as a real person, rather than a puppet.
Angela:He actually really well, his, his niece Maryelle Trump wrote a whole book about how he were created. Yeah. And he was literally groomed by a narcissist to be narcissistic his father. Yeah. To be a slum Lord. He was groomed to steal money. He was groomed to do a lot of things and he was taught that that's acceptable.
Bobby:Yeah. That's what, that's how success is earned.
Angela:Right. That's how success is. Yes. And these people are below you, who cares that they have running water, you know, you're still gonna collect the money. Right. And so he was really, really groomed at such a young age to think that, and believe those behaviors are acceptable, where in reality they're not. And the hard part is, think of it as a pill. If he had to swallow that reality pill that. All these things that you're doing is damaging and destructive and all of that, you could look at that pill as that's just way too big to swallow and right. And it's too hard for me to change. So I'm just gonna stay the way that I am. And that's where I tell people, you gotta break that pill into little pieces. Mm. You gotta digest a little bit, so, and do it in the certain area. So let's say it's where you think you're above someone else. Well, that one day just show some decency to a homeless person,
Bobby:right? Yeah. The was gonna say the confrontation of your entire personality all at once. Yes. You'll never make it. I'm saying it's too
Angela:big of a pill to swallow. Yeah. You gotta break it down in a little bits and pieces. Interesting. And, and that's where self awareness comes into play. You really gotta be aware of your actions and behaviors. Mm-hmm because when you don't, you're on automatic pilot, you're just gonna do what you always do. Mm.
Bobby:Any, any tips on how to raise that? Self-awareness well, how
Angela:to wear that,
Bobby:stupid Chelsea sign by Ben pissed off right now. Just looking at him off. Okay. But
Angela:then you wanna punch that face, but if it's your face, that pisses is that person's face that pisses you off, then maybe you were raised to really be prejudiced against Italian people.
Bobby:Whoa. Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Angela:Yeah. Have you thought about that? You know, it's like, you know, it's, you, you could have been, you know, raised to, to, to be that way. Sure, sure. And well, and I've even, so here's a perfect example is I remember talking to one of my friends and she met this one guy and she said, I don't know what it was about him, but everything about him, I just couldn't stand. And, and I said, okay, so who did he remind you of? Right.
Bobby:Interesting.
Angela:That person, that irritates you is still living rent free in your mind because that other person triggered you. So maybe you need to evict that person from your mind and forgive them because you're still holding resentment or you're still holding bitterness or you're you're just angry about a certain situation and really that person. Was the opportunity to help you change,
Bobby:right? And so you really have to, you really have to take that a step back and evaluate all your relationships
Angela:you do. That's where I tell people, you gotta detach yourself from it. And you gotta view it from an, from an outside perspective because all of us have been wounded in one way or another. I mean, they did a survey where they discovered they asked a bunch of 16 year olds and 23% of them all said they have experienced trauma. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. 23% and 70% of all Americans have reported that they've experienced trauma. But I really think a lot of people don't understand that the depth of trauma, because you can be directly traumatized and indirectly traumatized. So I'll give you an example of that. I witnessed this guy in his motorcycle, get clipped by a car that then threw the motorcycle under a motor home. And he was trapped. Yeah. And all the cars pulled over on the side of the road and the driver that hit him drove off. And when I stood there and saw this guy trapped underneath the motorcycle, you know, underneath the, the motor home I had nightmares for at least two months, I was indirectly traumatized. He was directly traumatized. Cuz he was trapped underneath the
Bobby:vehicle. Yeah. You had, you had what's called vicarious PTSD. Yes. Suffered by many, many military members who don't see direct action. Or nearby stay on the base. Yeah. Their actions influence other things. And yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a real big thing that's coming out. Uh, within the last couple of years, it's a huge, huge trauma problem.
Angela:Well, and hearing the stories of the guys come back. Yeah. And then telling their buddies, you know, this is what we experience and this bomb went off and this happened well, all of that can traumatize you cuz then you're scared as hell. You might be the next person to go out and you might get shot.
Bobby:Yeah.
Angela:Yeah. And, and we don't, we don't realize, you know, that stuff and, and we do. And that's why I tell a lot of people, you, we all, we need to talk about trauma and we need, because when people have PTSD, they're stuck in their survival brain. Oh, they're hypervigilant. And you know what, that's where the narcissist lives, they're stuck in their survival brain. They're hypervigilant. And a lot of narcissists do suffer from anxiety. Oh yeah. I'm, I'm working with one girl where when she was a teenager, her mom accidentally died and she said it was so painful. She just didn't wanna feel anymore. She just shut down and all, and she's in her twenties now, but all her friends say, you know, you're narcissistic. And, and I told her, I'm like, you're temporarily narcissistic. Right. And, and you know what? You can change. Cuz she came to see me for her anxiety. But when I learned about her whole story, I was like, yeah, there's nothing wrong with, you know, you right now being narcissistic, cuz you're still mad. Your mom died. Right. You you're still wounded. You're so hurt. And you, you know, you, you need to talk about it, but you need to talk about it with the person that you feel safe with. And when people try to force you to go out and do things you don't wanna do that triggers your anxiety. So you need to set healthy boundaries with those people and say, Hey, I'm not ready for that
Bobby:yet. Right. Right. And it's funny you say that too, because you know, the, the idea of. You're temporarily narcissistic. And so one of the quotes, you know, I had, you know, come across was, uh, that such psychological traits as narcissism should not be seen as either good or bad, but as products of evolution and expressions of human nature, that may be beneficial or harmful depending on the context. And so I think it's just like, it sums it up so well, that narcissism in itself is a small, small part of your entire kind of human personality, uh, you know, kinda wheel. And, and it really can come in and out on a day to day basis. And unfortunately, like you said, those who get stuck in survival brain, you know, really seems like they are suffering more than they appear to let on.
Angela:They are. And that's why I want people to become trauma informed because when you recognize the signs of someone stuck in their survival brain and the way that they're acting and behaving, you then have a choice. You won't be victimized. You, you won't take their behaviors personal, you won't get psychologically abused. And, and the best way that I like to break that all down is my son also has autism. And so when he was, when I discovered he had autism, I was in the dark. I took his behaviors personally. I didn't know what to do. And the same with foster parents that take on kids with trauma and abuse, they were taking their behaviors personal. They were in the dark, but here's the key thing is when everyone is educated and informed, then you have a choice. Now you have tools, you have wisdom. You, when they had those behaviors, you realize, Hey, they're stuck in their trauma brain. They're just acting up. You know, the same with my, my kiddo, when he would act up, I would be like, okay, did someone bully you today? Did someone make fun of you today? And that happens with a lot of kids that have autism, they can be bullied. And that's another way that a person does become narcissistic is through bullying, child abuse and trauma. So there's three parenting styles and three ways that they go through life experiences.
Bento:God. I, I feel like I went through all six of those things and I just smoke a lot of pot to calm down. so I guess I'm lucky I didn't become a total narcs myself, so that's that's good. Yeah. So
Bobby:pot
Angela:is great.
Bento:Let's go. Oh, sure is sure is we can talk another hour about that. Oh, no kidding. so, Angela, I really appreciate you coming on. Uh, it was very informative.
Angela:You guys aren't dumb. You guys are brilliant.
Bento:yeah. So yeah. So Angela, is there anything that you wanna promote? Anything you got going on that you wanna our listeners to check out?
Bobby:Yeah. Talk about the book.
Angela:Oh yes. So the book that I wrote is called the undetected narcissist, and it is about one co cot, narcissist that fooled over a dozen professionals in our system that was designed to help me and my kiddo. And what's so scary is I ended up talking to, you know, someone that works with domestic violence. And when I shared with her or my story, she's like, do you know that what you experienced is considered a crime in other countries, but in the United States, they get away with it. Wow. Interesting. And you know what your son experienced is considered child abuse. Mm-hmm in other countries and he got away with it. Wow.
Bento:Wow. Yeah. I realize example of what's an example of a, like another country that would yeah. Penalize someone for that.
Angela:Well my FA my son found a place. I think it's in army or Switzerland. There is actually a country that if you are a survivor of domestic violence, no abusers can be in that country. It is a safe zone for people to, to be in. Interesting. And so the problem is, I think a lot of people in our country are. Not educated and informed about narcissism. Okay. So here's
Bobby:the, or anything or anything? Yeah,
Angela:so here's the biggest tip that I learned is when I reviewed, you know, went back and, and looked at, you know, the chapters that I wrote, I realized that every single person, the social worker, a child psychologist, the judge, the parent coordinator therapist, all of them were not trauma informed and trauma educated because here's the fact my son's father was able to convince the judge that if our son lived with him, all his autism behaviors would go away.
Bobby:yeah. It's like a magic pill.
Bento:What, uh, what stay is this in? Just outta curiosity, Oregon.
Angela:Oh Oregon. Wow. And, and she bought it and she believed it, but here's the point I'm trying to make. My son still has autism. He doesn't see his dad and he doesn't have those behaviors anymore. So what was it? Was it the autism or was it the trauma? Hmm, it was the trauma because he was begging everyone telling everyone I don't wanna live with this man. He's cold. He's not nice to me. Right. He's he's not good. And he was able to convince everybody that well, she's telling them that she's, he's grooming him to hate me.
Bobby:Right, right. Yeah. Shes a
Angela:crazy one and not one person because I've read lots of books about narcissism and not one of them actually told their story. I wanted a story from start to finish. And I wanted people to know these are the mistakes I made. This is, and it was in everyone's face. Cuz when I took the, I saved all the emails and the legal documents, the letters. And when I highlighted and bold all the keyword that I said, like he created drama to get this. He set me up. Those were all key words that described, you know, the gas lighting, the baiting, the undermining, the stonewalling. I just didn't know what the words were. I, I didn't know. And, and so I, I, I wrote the book to save lives, to really keep people safe and to protect children and, and parents. So then if they're in the same exact situation, they know how to go about it. And I even created a victim's profile, like how to figure out who really is the victim and who is the narcissist, because a narcissist is not solution oriented. That's the biggest thing I learned. They're not solution oriented because why they're not is they're stuck in their survivor brain to be solution oriented. You need to be in your cortex brain. And that's where it's rational thinking. It's logic. It's where you have empathy, it's creativity. So when you present a problem to them, If they can't find a solution, you know, they're stuck in their survival brain. They're not stuck in the cortex.
Bento:Cause well, it's acceptance thing too. Right. They don't even, they don't think they did anything wrong. So there's nothing,
Bobby:they rather argue solution solution. Right, right, right. Right.
Angela:Well they well come up with solution if it's selfserving, but they have a really hard time coming up with the solution that's to serve somebody else. Right. Hmm. Fascinating. And so the other thing I'll plug is I have a podcast it's called the undetected. Narcissist. I have a website with a, and I like to put blog posts that match the podcast. I've done one like can narcissist change answering the nos and then answering the yeses. I have fear of dating another narcissist. I talk about recovery. I talk about oh, on I I've done 25 episodes so far.
Bento:And where can we see that? Or hear that podcast? Huh. Tell, tell your where we can hear that podcast.
Angela:What's your website. So you can find it on every platform it's on Spotify, Pandora, audible Amazon, it's called the undetected narcissist podcast. And what about your book?
Bento:Where can we get that?
Angela:That is on Amazon as well. And I'm pretty sure right now, if you have the Kindle unlimited, it's free. Damn cool. Yeah. For the ebook, it's like 10 bucks, 9 99 for the paperback. It's I think 1399. Beautiful. It's it's pretty affordable, but it's really designed to educate and inform people. And I am gonna work on a whole new podcast coming up soon about breaking down the trauma bonding, cuz that I think is really important. Yeah. For, for people to get, because you gotta break that cycle of abuse. and if you, you know, if you don't, it's just gonna repeat and recycle, repeat and recycle generation a generation, a generation, cuz that's what was normal in your family.
Bento:Absolutely. Awesome. Awesome. Well again, Angela, thanks a lot for coming on. Uh, really appreciate your time. Yeah.
Bobby:Thank you so much. Best of luck.
Angela:Thank you as well. And you guys have a fantastic night. Yeah, you as
Bobby:well as well. Okay. All
Bento:bye. Take care.